Richard Dawkins is quite descriptive when he states, “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” Interesting.
It’s interesting when an atheist invariably paints God as some sort of cosmic bully, yet they are unable to see His goodness. It’s not a matter of finding a balance between God’s niceness and meanness. God is Love, yet God is Justice. We, as fallen humans, have a tendency to frame the argument from a position of innocence. Can we honestly say that we are innocent?
If we are honest with ourselves, we would admit that we are covetous and murderous thieves. Those are strong words, but we must remember that Jesus upped the ante when he said, “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.” (Matthew 5:21-22 ESV) We choose to indict God when we are guilty rather than to humble ourselves and repent.
Perhaps we want to blame God for our sinful nature. Why would a loving God make us broken, only to cast us into hell? That’s a good question, but God did not make us sinful. He created Adam and Eve without sin. The sin nature of Adam passed to his descendants. We are not direct creations of God like Adam and Eve. We are born of Adam. Sure, there is the Jehoiachin problem, but if it wasn’t for the virgin birth, Jesus would have inherited this sin nature.
We say that God is immoral for upholding His perfect and moral law. The Ten Commandments are so deceptively simple, yet impossible to maintain. Is God immoral because these rules are so hard? No. The Law doesn’t make us bad any more than it makes us good. The Law reveals our inability to be righteous on our own. The Law points us to our Savior. But we reject the Savior.
We say God is immoral when He upholds His impossible laws, yet we are upset when He extends grace to rescue us from our dire situation. We choose to remain dead in our trespasses and blame our Creator for our sins. God then offers us salvation and we have the audacity to call him a tyrant.
cateritforward 
Well said. It drives me nuts that God’s justice is so often mischaracterized. Great post.
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Thank you for the kind words. I, too, am frustrated by the mischaracterization of God’s justice.
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“If we are honest with ourselves, we would admit that we are covetous and murderous thieves.” Really? I’m sorry you feel that way about yourself and those around you. I can’t imagine what kind of society you live in.
“The Ten Commandments are so deceptively simple, yet impossible to maintain.” What in the 10 Commandments are you finding impossible to maintain? A few of them are basic and obvious ethical standards that are required to live in a peaceful society i.e. beneficial for us and our offspring, like not murdering or stealing, and trying to stay in stable relationships. The rest is surely pretty easy if you believe that this benevolent deity exists – don’t make graven images and love the god you imagine. I can’t think what part you could find impossible.
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” Hosea 13:16
I also can’t imagine why you wouldn’t find this kind of pronouncement abhorrent and in line with the idea that the Christian god as portrayed in the OT is a horrendous character.
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Your reply seems to imply that you can keep the Ten Commandments perfectly. If that is the case, you should be deified as there has only been one person in history who has been able to keep the Law perfectly.
Have you ever been angry at someone? Jesus says you are guilty of murder. Have you ever lusted after someone in your heart? Jesus says you just committed adultery. What is the most important thing in your life? Work, money, family, golf? If God is not the most important thing in your life, you are an idolator.
Am I saying I can keep the laws? No way! It’s impossible. God demands perfection, and you and I cannot come close to that.
As for Hosea 13:16, I am not surprised that you are taking scripture out of context. The people of the Northern Kingdom (Samaria) were exceedingly wicked chasing after their idols. They showed great reverence to false Gods. They were high handedly unfaithful to God.
I don’t know if you realize it or not, but Hosea is a prophet. He was fortelling what is to befall Samaria if there was no repentance for Samaria’s sins. God used Assyria as an instrument to punish these people for their wickedness. Dashing childrens’ heads against stones was common practice for the heathen. Hosea was being very descriptive in what is in store for them if they don’t repent.
Well, there was no repentance and in 722 B.C., Samaria was taken by Assyria after a three year siege.
As always, God gave his people a chance to repent. When His patience was completed, it was time to make good on His promise.
Ninevah had a similar fate in store for them, but Jonah prophesied that the city had forty days to repent of their evil. They did, and God spared them. About 100 years later, Nahum warned Ninevah to repent of their wickedness. His prophesies went unheeded, and God punished these wicked people for their iniquity.
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“His prophesies went unheeded, and God punished these wicked people for their iniquity.”
Can I ask, do you know any ‘wicked’ people that you would punish by personally killing them? Would you kill someone or wish them eternal torment because they put their family or their work first in life, or because the chemicals in their body aroused them to feel sexually attracted to someone they weren’t married to? I don’t mind (although I feel mildly concerned) that you people want to believe in the hideous god portrayed in the Bible, but I’m just confused that you try to convince yourself actions like murder, for whatever reason, could ever come from a perfect or benevolent being.
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Thank you so much for this great post about God’s justice and love. I especially love this – “We, as fallen humans, have a tendency to frame the argument from a position of innocence. Can we honestly say that we are innocent?” Yes, I think we commit this mistake often when we forget where we come from. Indeed when atheists bash God as a tyrant, they almost always take the Scripture out of context because they never bothered to read the Bible cover-to-cover to see how everything ties in. Read just Leviticus, you might think God is a blood-crazed demigod who just wants to quench his thirst for more slaughter – but if examined closely, the faithful find out that it is essential in helping us understand why the Crucifixion leads to Salvation and why Jesus had to be baptized by a mere man, John the Baptist. I praise (your ability to) and challenge that you continue to respond to nonbelievers with the grace and calmness that God allows us. Amen.
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Playnamz,
Thank you do much for the kind words, and though I try to communicate with kindness and meekness, the flesh will take over, and I sometimes respond in less than a Christlike manner. I really appreciate the encouragement as there are so many that just want to sully the name of Christ, it sometimes feels like you are all alone.
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No way brother! I’m in some pretty dark times right now and God never ceases to amaze me when I scrunch up enough courage to act on my faith. “Do It Anyway” poem comes to my mind. God bless.
“…In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.”
~ Mother Teresa
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Violet,
For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Romans 1:21 ESV)
I really don’t expect you to understand. You want to elevate yourself to God’s perspective. We are His creation, not His equal. If you were a potter and you shattered a pot you made, would you be an evil murderer?
The assumption you make is that you are good, when you are not. If you say you have never lied, coveted, lusted, etc., you are a liar. If you have committed these sins, you are guilty.
Instead of humbling yourself and repenting, you insist you are good and certainly not worthy of death.
One question I cannot find an answer for is when people indict God as vindictive and evil when he destroyed the wicked in biblical history, but I haven’t heard anyone tell me how evil God is because of their own impending death. God has killed every person who has ever died, and one day He will kill you and I. Does that make you bitter? It pleases me because there is an end to the suffering (and I personally endure much physical suffering), and there is something much greater to experience than I could ever imagine in this life.
You sound as if he is bad to cast judgment, yet you want to judge Him. If He is not permitted to judge the righteous and the wicked, what makes you think you can judge the character of God?
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“One question I cannot find an answer for is when people indict God as vindictive and evil when he destroyed the wicked in biblical history, but I haven’t heard anyone tell me how evil God is because of their own impending death. God has killed every person who has ever died, and one day He will kill you and I. Does that make you bitter?”
Well, given that I don’t believe any gods exist, and therefore would have no hand in my death, of course I’m not bitter. From the point of view of anyone who believes in your god, they think they’re going to eternal paradise, so of course they wouldn’t be bitter. There’s no answer for your question because it doesn’t make sense.
“what makes you think you can judge the character of God?” I’m judging the character of the being portrayed in the Bible based on my personally developed understanding of what actions of good outcomes, and what have bad outcomes. I don’t see that murder ever has anything but bad outcomes in terms of quality of life for any human beings. I know that humans are sentient beings and I don’t like to see any sentient being suffer, primarily because of our naturally evolved sense of empathy that has helped our species thrive in social groups.
Why do you feel you can’t judge the moral character of your god? Surely, like other Christians, you believe morality has been beamed into existence from your creator – why would he instil one sense of morality on humans if he was playing by a different morality handbook?
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“If you were a potter and you shattered a pot you made, would you be an evil murderer?”
I’ve heard this terrible argument before. A pot isn’t a sentient object, it feels nothing. Also I have ‘created’ children, I look after animals, and I would never knowingly harm another sentient being – more especially not one I’m responsible for bringing into existence. Your brand of Christianity clearly feeds on low self-esteem. Do you not value things you create and wish to protect any sentient being in your care? Why would a creator deity take the attitude of disinterested pot smashing?? That’s certainly not the message illustrated by the character Jesus, so I’m kind of confused.
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Since you don’t believe in God, why are you concerned in the first place? I don’t believe in Vishnu and know nothing about it. Is it a Hindu elephant god? The point is I don’t care. I care so little about it that I’m too lazy to Google it.
It’s different with you and your unbelief. You seem to have educated yourself on the subject enough to form an opinion, but if you think it’s nonsense, why bother? Why not just rescue cats or something you deem worthwhile?
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Thanks for not responding to any of the points in my comment. I am seriously confused why you think a benevolent god would treat people like inanimate objects.
But to answer your questions, I guess I got myself tangled up in all this because of the harmful effects Christianity has on society – belittling women, stigmatising homosexuals, and spreading unhelpful messages about nonsense they call sin.
Your post I stumbled upon and couldn’t help but sigh at the completely illogical argument suggesting that the god of the Old Testament is anything other than seriously unpleasant. If you’re not comfortable discussing your position I completely understand. You don’t have a leg to stand on after all. 😀
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Please forgive me for appearing evasive. I had tried a couple of times to post, to no avail. And then I had a nice nap. Nevertheless, whatever argument I present will not likely satisfy you.
The reference to the potter and the clay was not to imply that God cares nothing about His creation. It was a reference to Isaiah 29:16. The point is that we are the creation, not the Creator. Romans 5:6-8 tells us that God thinks very highly of His creation. The Apostle Paul states, “For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
I don’t know what you mean when you say Christianity belittles women. The world seems to say that empowerment is promiscuous sex and abortion. This is not that different than ancient days with child sacrifice and orgies to please the gods. Baal, Molech, and Ashtoreth come to mind. And if you think I’m splitting hairs when I make a comparison to abortion, child murder occurs both inside and outside the womb.
As for homosexuality, it is opposed throughout the Bible. It is not opposed to marginalize people, it is opposed because it is sinful and runs counter to God’s design. Genesis 2:18-25, Matthew 19:4-6, and Ephesians 5:22-23 depict how His creation is intended between one man and one woman.
Paul explains how homosexuality is a judgment from God in Romans 1:24-28: “Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.”
Everyone is free to do as they wish, but everything comes with a consequence. One consequence is hell, not just for the homosexual, but for all unrepentant sinners. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 condemns all sinners: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” But there is always hope as evidenced in 1 Corinthians 6:11: “And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
So Christianity has nothing to do with marginalizing or demonizing people. Christians love others enough to light the path to life. We all can choose to live in darkness, but that is not what God wants for His creation.
Everyone likes to try to say there is a God of the Old Testament and a kinder, gentler one in the New Testament. It is the same God. You can see evidence of Jesus Christ throughout the Old Testament. The tabernacle is a picture of Jesus. Noah’s Ark is a picture of Jesus. Moses’ raising of the brazen serpent in the desert is a picture of Jesus. The Passover Lamb was a picture of Jesus. Melchizedek, Joseph, David, and Jonah were all pictures of Jesus. The entire Old Testament pointed to one thing only: Jesus and the salvation that comes with Him.
The Old Testament shows that God will judge sinners, but more importantly, it points to the Lamb who does much more than cover sins, He removes them altogether. Jesus Christ gave up his life on the cross while we were still enemies so that He could rescue us and fellowship with us forever.
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Violet, it seems that your view of God isn’t based on a thorough understanding of God. Perhaps you’ve only read about God in select sections of the OT? To judge based on just a small section of the Bible would be like reviewing a movie based on the 1-min preview. Would you agree that such review can’t possibly be conclusive? I’d like to make 4 points:
1. Preserving life DOESN’T EQUAL Justice – You seem to care greatly for life and think just protecting of life – I do too, but I’d like to point out that “preserving life” does not equal “justice.” Take for a case of a serial killer who killed 30 people, let’s say including someone dear to you. What would justice look like to you whose life is forever altered by the senseless act of violence? In such case, a judge who disregards the pleas of the victims’ families and ignores the killer’s lack of remorse could be the one perpetuating injustice. In the case of God of the Bible, this is similar. You need to read what would cause him to punish in such a way. And to do that, you could read Exodus, which would show you people’s continued disobedience after God providing and relenting from anger over and over again. And you need to understand why God would be so angry – as in the significance of certain acts such as people worshipping the image of the golden calf. If you do not understand where God’s coming from, this might just look like people dancing around some pretty jewelry when in fact, this is like your newborn baby getting up and spitting at your face saying he doesn’t need you. Just imagine… and you know what’s best for your baby but he just won’t listen. Yeah. And about wiping people out? Think about Ebola since the story quite popular these days. God made every single one of those disobedient ones die in the wilderness and forbid them to see the Promised Land which He was leading them to. Again, it seems so cruel! But do you know the spiritual realities behind it? Think of sin like ebola virus. It creeps in, often without people even knowing about it. To eradicate it, you have to ensure it is killed off and cannot allow those infected, out in the the world, right? And let’s say there’s NO CURE, then despite the wish of life-loving people, you would probably agree that the infected has to die in that room, as harsh as it sounds. With me so far? That was the situation with those people. God had to ensure that sins of those generation does not taint it for the new residents of the Promised Land.
2. Your version of God seems to be from a very limited source – If you read the book of Jeremiah, you will see a weeping God who, like a estranged girlfriend waiting for her boyfriend to return, implores His people to return, wallowed in sorrow, turning to anger at their disobedience (remember, He made them and knows what’s best for them but they just won’t listen, like a stubborn child), but quickly relenting just wanting them to come back. Did you know this side of God? How about Song of Songs, which describes just how in love God is with His creation? And so much more. Truth is, if you do not read New Testament to understand the person of Christ, then it will be pretty impossible to understand the whole of who God is, because Jesus Christ is the completion of God’s plan to rescue mankind (despite falling by their own sins against God).
3. Human’s sinful nature – When Christians say they’re sinners, it comes from recognizing their sinful nature. We humans, have this sinful nature. You said, “primarily because of our naturally evolved sense of empathy that has helped our species thrive in social groups.” Really? Then how would you explain all kinds of animal cruelty, environmental damage issues, and violent crimes everywhere? Humans involved may instinctively wish good for the nature, but their selfishness got the better of them and thus they threw garbages in the sea, didn’t check oil rigs carefully, and their initial harmless jealousy turned into double homicide. Isn’t that an evil thing to do? Won’t you agree, looking at miles of dead fish at the site of BP gulf disaster, that evilness of men is to be blamed for these millions of lives taken? And guess what, many of these people aren’t much different from you and me. Some murders are committed by people who weren’t outright violent, if ever. When we’re talking about humans being evil, I’m not only talking about machine-gun-wielding psychos who embody pure hate and evil. We may wish good, and yes, we often show acts of kindness and I also like to believe people’s good sides, but the fact is we humans are naturally selfish and violent, the reason why we need police and military. And by violent, again, not only talking about a guy running after another with a knife, but the violent thoughts filling one’s mind instantly when angry regardless of being translated into action later, etc. I am trying to point out to you, we’re pretty broken. Look within you to see when’s the last time you were angry at someone.
4. Why even thoughts count as sins? – And as for God, He has zero sin. And God in all His power can’t do 1 thing – lie. He has laid out justice, then he cannot possibly go against it not even 0.0000001%! He cannot see violence in one’s heart and say with a smile, “Not guilty!.” Do you kind of get my point? Just imagine that for a second that He is the pure embodiment of justice – so if there’s even a trace of sin in a man(looking upon someone with lustful thoughts), it’s sin to God’s eyes no different than more outright sin (let’s say rape). That is why even the thoughts are sin – NOT because God is so cheap-minded and strict, BUT because His very nature of holiness just cannot mingle with sin, period. It’s easy to think about it in this way – light and darkness. Darkness cannot coexist with light, period. In a dark room, darkness is everywhere right? But then try shining a flashlight on the wall, instantly, darkness in that area disappears. You cannot make darkness stay, even in a small form. That’s how God is with sin. Anyway, that is why the 10 commandments is impossible to keep, contrary to what you think. You didn’t understand what it is if you think you can keep it perfectly. If you ever got angry at your parents at any point, that’s one less of the 10 you kept. According to you who’s flawless, well, if indeed God is alive, then it’s going to be real impossible for you to go to heaven on your terms – because for you who do not admit your sin, then there’s also no forgiving of, your sins right? (Cuz there’s no sin to forgive according to you) That means you will have to live the rest of your life never getting angry at anyone, never even thinking of slightest white lies, and never fancying any slightest jealousy at any friend or family for nice house, great job, killer looks, etc… This is just impossible unless you turn catatonic for the rest of your life… and then when you commit even 1 sin, well then you’re a sinner and if nothing is done about it, down to hell you go, according to the Bible. (Just giving an example here – same is true for me) Now, on the contrary for Christians, we acknowledge this sinful nature, that’s the start. Then we ask God to forgive – through His Son Jesus Whose death and resurrection have forever forgiven the debt of those who believe in His name. So it’s like a renewal every time. For example, I was slightly angered by an abusive driver earlier on the road. I used to be quite the road-raged-potty-mouth, but got much better over the years. But I still thought briefly the ‘What the ….?’ and thus, sinned. But I asked for forgiveness and I know I am forgiven. Seems easy? It is. However, because we’re aware of just how often these episodes arise, we cannot help but realize our sinfulness and that we need God’s help everyday. This reliance on God, is in essence, Christianity. I used to tell my friends, “I am Christian because I need help.” I mean every word of it. And if you ever meet me, there’s a good chance you might think I’m a nice chap. Most people do. But being nice chap does not mean he does not have sin. I said this to let you know that this concept of sinner isn’t something so foreign and far from well-meaning people like you.
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Thank you both for your detailed responses. I’m still confused by your insistence that you can reconcile the idea of a benevolent creator with the actions your god is portrayed as having taken, but I guess you have a different approach to evaluating the behaviour of your fellow human beings.
For instance, the idea that homosexuality could somehow be ‘wrong’ is in itself lacking in empathy, or steeped in ignorance. Our sexual desires are a natural part of our biological make-up. You believe we were created and that most people have naturally heterosexual urges, but that people, by choosing sin (?) want sexual contact with someone of their sex. That’s ridiculous. What heterosexual person wants sexual contact with someone of their own sex? And if you think homosexuality is built into your god’s ‘design’ for humans – what kind of psychopath creator would inflict people with sexual feelings they could never fulfil?
The outcomes of following traditional Christian guidance on this matter (and I’ve argued there’s actually very little Biblical basis for your stance on many occasions) are without exception heartache, depression, guilt, shame, repression and, on the occasions where the homosexual is convinced to ‘turn’ straight and marry, almost always broken relationships and ruined lives.
Another area that concerns me is Playnamz’s attitude to people who exhibit destructive behaviour. Yes, there are people who commit the most awful atrocities in the world and most of us keen to eliminate these types of behaviour. But to be honest I don’t feel the need to ‘punish’ people who commit crimes. Primarily I feel the need to protect society from them (jail, evidence-based treatments), and secondly investigate the causes of anti-social and destructive behaviours, and encourage society to find a way to avoid making mistakes that have led people to have such poorly developed social and empathetic senses. Because everyone has a history, everyone has lived through a sequence of events that have led them to their present state of mind. And we can learn from that, we do learn from that.
What do Christians believe? Your god (knowing everything and being all-powerful) created everything and yet he is deeply disappointed in what he created. He punishes, he kills, and in spite of knowing everything, regrets his actions and wipes out everyone except for one family. They then go on to repopulate the world and continue to disappoint him and be punished and killed. His only way to remedy the situation is to come to earth as a man and allow himself to be killed as a blood sacrifice to himself, so he can deal with what he has made. Even for people who insist they have had contact with some type of god, I just don’t see how anyone can accept the Christian story is a rational scenario.
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Thank you Violet, for letting me understand better where you’re coming from. I want you to know that I respect differences and always try to learn something from their perspective as well. For me to understand you better, I think it’d help if you clarify what you mean by “your insistence that you can reconcile the idea of a benevolent creator with the actions your god is portrayed as having taken.” I think if you could give an explicit example, other than the homosexuality one, that would be great.
1. Why homosexuality is such a big offense to God
As for homosexuality, it is admittedly a difficult topic to discuss. But to start off, let me clarify that God never “built” homosexuality into His design for humans. Remember, God invented sex as a wonderful thing, but sinful nature in people brought about the perversion of sex and gave rise to homosexuality. It’s clearly described in Genesis that people of Sodom & Gomorrah perpetuated this sin completely disregarding God’s original intentions and just dove in deeper and deeper into carnal sins including incest, homosexuality, bestiality, etc. (It’s like moms telling kids to not touch fire and the kid saying, “Well, I CAN touch it.. you can’t make me not to, and it’s DIFFERENT so I like to try!”) God is angered because that was not his original intention. It is a big deal to Him because sexual relations as He created weren’t something that’s to be done casually for just physical, or emotional pleasure – It was intended to be of the highest form of intimacy, one that resembles perfect union between God and Adam (before the fall), and one that He ordained to be between male and female only. He bestowed each sex with distinct physiological, mental, social, spiritual traits and natures. They are at their best and finest when in their natural roles in the world. Equal and Distinct. He created sex for male and female for perfect order to be maintained because if not, He knew what kind of chaos and breakdown in social order would ensue. Just imagine – let’s just say global homosexual couples rise to 10% of all “couples”, that’s in my quick conservative back-of-the-envelope estimation roughly 100 million homosexual couples. Where are the adoptees going to come from if all male-male couples want at least one kid? What happens with male-centric occupations? What about slew of kids who lack mothers? What about spike in disease related to anal sex or potential birth issues and physical/mental/moral/spiritual issues with artificial inseminations? What about drastic drop in birth rates? What about imbalance in kids’ upbringing? List goes ON and ON and… it’s not even scratching the surface of all the negative impact out there. He indeed gave free will to people, but He did this because He loves them. But He did not in anyway intend the perversion nor “inflict” people with such sexual feelings.
2. Christians need to put LOVE first but cannot agree to homosexuality
And let me mention that Christians haven’t done the best job in dealing with homosexual people. I disagree completely with homosexuality but I also wouldn’t judge them, and I try my best to treat them no differently, and with respect. But realize that this bias is not only to be blamed on Christians, but just this society and the world we live in. Churches cannot turn away homosexuals because the principle of love comes first. Jesus did this – He hung out with imperfect people like tax collectors and prostitutes. However, the church also cannot say homosexuality is normal and good because it just isn’t. Your examples are very one-sided Violet… when you say “Christian guidance… are without exception heartache, depression…” you forget the destructive consequences of the homosexual relationship. It tears apart families because well, in the most basic sense, you cannot create families, right? Adoption? Oh yeah? Ok, but that requires a heterosexual couple, yes? And it requires separation of children from those couples. Adoption other than orphans by natural cause has its share of destructive nature – there’s a parental abandonment/irresponsibility somewhere up the chain. Don’t get me wrong – adoption can be great chance to give a child a second chance in life, but you just cannot argue that, if the basic rules of marriage and sex were followed, adoption won’t be happening in the first place! I was in Africa for 2 months this summer working with NGO’s and I can attest that there’s a lot of irresponsibility on men’s parts that create cadres of adoptees. I’m just trying to make you think about the whole other side of the story Violet. You want more? Ok, so in respect to gay relationship, it is portrayed as almost a beautiful thing in Hollywood movies such as Brokeback Mountain. However, do you know the realities? I don’t confess to know them either cuz I am not gay and my close friends aren’t, but from account I’ve heard from an ex-gay man, there are a lot of suffering and downright unglamorous parts to gay sex. STD’s and AIDS , and many other risky health issues run rampant. For sake of political correctness, we aren’t even allowed to talk negatively about homosexuality anymore, and as a result, it is portrayed as completely normal and good. This is because, homosexuals themselves do not want the bad sides to come to light. So let’s not make extreme statements such as “almost always broken relationships and ruined lives” when homosexual act themselves can lead to ruined lives aplenty. God does not condone homosexuality, but He still loved them, this is the fact. Church needs to do better in treating homosexuals but will not, and cannot shy away from wanting to help them because it is against their belief. But God is the only ultimate judge so while I would disagree and if given a chance, try to help a homosexual friend, I also won’t judge or try to force my views on them either, because again, love comes first. I practice love even to those that I may not agree with on some pretty serious grounds, and this is because God has done that first with me and the rest of the mankind.
Sorry for this long response. I’ll follow up with my response regarding punishment and the last paragraph.
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Now let me address the attitude comment. (Part 2 of my response)
I think you need to define what “punishment” is. If it’s “killing”, then I agree that it doesn’t have to always end in death penalty and that every other measures need to be pursued before we ever put anyone to death. God is right there with me on this. He doesn’t want to see death either. And you’re contradicting yourself when you say you don’t feel the need to ‘punish’ people yet later state “jail” as one of the things to do to “protect society” from them. Jail is a form of punishment, right? Quite honestly, if we could just use life sentences for worst of criminals, I would prefer that, too. But ignoring this is your lack of empathy or awareness about what justice may be for those who were the victim of heinous crimes. Forgive me, but you come across very idealistic and out of touch with the reality of the world. The reality of human nature as I stated in previous replies was that they are violent. Unfortunately because of this, many of victims’ families, etc would see justice done in their loved ones’ murderers executed rather than jailed. How can you say that is wrong without experiencing such torture? I certainly can’t, and that’s why I won’t say it’s outright wrong. As for God, again, He cannot coexist with evil, and if the sinner does not repent, since He cannot lie, that sinner will go to hell. But before you criticize Him, remember that He has given the way out, and it is the responsibility of the sinner himself and people around him including you and me, that can connect him to repentance. So please get out of your mind this notion of God the murderer which as I pointed out before, is a very selectively biased view of God.
As for your last paragraph that seem to describe God as a paradoxical and irrational fool who “knew all” but created and got disappointed, then began to kill all of them… I won’t repeat myself on the extremism you employ nor the selection bias, but let me elaborate on the free will comment I made earlier to explain this. He could very well create perfectly obedient robot-like Adam and Eve. They would never cause him any stress! But God did not and gave us free will because He loved us so much and in turn, risked his authority being challenged by his beloved creations. Think about that for a second. It is extremely difficult for any of us to give to another friend or family certain possessions be it material things like money, information like stock tips, GPA, or personal secrets. We are afraid to because it may give them certain powers over us. (And we dislike this because we’re innately selfish) Now, put that analogy to God and tiny ants called humans. These humans are infinitely smaller/weaker/lesser being compared to Himself, yet God passes on that information called the autonomous mind which can pretty much disable his control over men. In essence, God went “all-in” and did not save any moves for his own preservation. (Which we do all the time) If you truly are thinking from a humble perspective (and not as if you are God’s equal), this ought to get you to think. Now, add on top of that sending His own Son to be slaughtered, according to rules of sacrifice He set forth for men. (i.e. God is playing on the same playing field as men) Btw for you being a justice-lover, Jesus didn’t do anything wrong. But forgiving of sin necessitated a “sinless” being to be sacrificed instead, so Jesus the sinless had to come down degrading Himself as a human being knowing his fate, and die a horrible death. So do not talk of this “sacrifice to himself” so lightly as if it’s a nonsense. It reflects God’s inability to dodge justice and truth and his insane ability to humble Himself and love the unlovable, us.
By the way, you’ve pointed out the owner of this blog saying he dodged your questions. I think I can say the same – you did not respond to any of my responses to your original comments. Let me just ask a few pointed questions then – what have you read in the Bible about God? Or other sources? And what constitutes your life experiences? (basically a “tell me a bit about yourself”) I realize this may come across intrusive, but I asked because that would let me know how best to respond to you. For example, if you’re 13, or if you had a close gay friend who was on the receiving end of horribly hate-filled treatment from a “Christian”, I would have much better understanding of why you may think or respond the way you do. I’m being totally serious and respectful when I ask such questions by the way. You don’t have to answer any of this if you don’t want, of course.
Thank you for a great discourse.
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I think all in all it has been a great discourse, and I always appreciate the opportunity to share ideas. I also know that in order to practice tolerance, there must be a disagreement. If I completely agree with someone, no tolerance is required. I think that this discussion has been generally congenial and tolerant, which I believe is the only way to get a better understanding of differing perspectives.
I agree with you, playnamz, regarding the seriousness God takes with sin and the extremes He had to take to satisfy His requirements. It is against His nature to change rules because they are inconvenient. The penalty for sin is death, but Christ can pay the fine or we can choose to pay it ourselves.
As an aside: I believe that compelling cases on either side of the capital punishment issue can be made from a biblical perspective.
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Wonderful post. God is a Great, Just and Loving Father God. Yet the trouble started with satan’s rebellion in heaven misleading others to join him. Since then self-rule democracy rules people by people for people humanism excludes God. So gives freedom but bans Bible as source of Authority. Some are out of control, fester, self- destruct then blame God for not treating them right. They are responsible for their actions, accountable to God for consequences. They must repent to receive forgiveness of God through Christ Jesus.
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Thank you so much for the compliment. Thank you for taking the time to read my post.
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Violet, I was looking back at one of your comments and I’m unclear regarding your sense of justice (or lack thereof).
“But to be honest I don’t feel the need to ‘punish’ people who commit crimes. Primarily I feel the need to protect society from them (jail, evidence-based treatments), and secondly investigate the causes of anti-social and destructive behaviours, and encourage society to find a way to avoid making mistakes that have led people to have such poorly developed social and empathetic senses.”
Is prison not a punishment? Can that not be a form of justice? You want to protect society from the harm these criminals produce, but you don’t feel any desire to protect society from the harm that abortion causes? Premarital sex? Adultery? Even if you wanted to imagine that homosexuality was normal and not harmful to society, homosexual relationships are adulterous in nature. Even if you want to assume that God isn’t real or that he is a namby pamby being that would recognize man’s redefinition of marriage, you still have instances of adultery, premarital sex, incest, etc. What are you doing to combat these harms?
Personally, I volunteer to feed victims of disasters, the homeless, the disenfranchised, etc. I’m not blowing my own horn, but playnamz and I are actively living out our faith, or if you don’t like that term, beliefs or convictions.
It’s easy to be an armchair general and indict God on “crimes” that you perceive or feel. It’s easy to share what the ideal world is in your opinion. But are you doing anything to make your views a reality? I don’t know. I’m just curious to see if you talk a good game or if you actually do as you say.
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